PODCAST TRANSCRIPT: ‘Israel is using organized crime to control Palestinian citizens’
This transcript was generated using an AI transcription service and lightly edited for readability. Please consult the corresponding audio before quoting.
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Ghousoon Bisharat
Welcome to the +972 Podcast, your direct line to the journalists, thinkers, and activists struggling for justice in Israel-Palestine. I’m Ghousoon Bisharat, Editor in Chief of +972 Magazine, and your host for today’s episode. Our podcast grounds the discussion in lived realities to bring you closer to the issues that matter most between the River and the Sea.
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Ghousoon Bisharat
In November 2025, after 10 years in the Knesset, Palestinian lawmaker Aida Touma-Suleiman announced she would not seek re-election, saying she could no longer serve an institution that embodies oppression, silencing, and Jewish supremacy. As a feminist, political activist, and the only woman MK in the Jewish Arab Party — the Democratic Front for Peace and Equality, Hadash — she has long pushed for change within the system before ultimately concluding that the change she seeks will not come from the institutions of the state.
Her decision came at a moment of intense pressure for Palestinian citizens of Israel, which has been mounting over the past two years against the backdrop of the October 7 attack and Israel’s onslaught on Gaza. Now, as homicides from violent crime continue to rock the population, with dozens of deaths already recorded in Arab communities in January alone, these longstanding pressures are reaching a breaking point. At the same time, Israel is heading into another election year. Palestinian voters and the parties meant to represent them could play a decisive role in determining the next government or the outcome of the 2026 elections, even as almost all of Netanyahu’s critics insist they will not cooperate with Arab parties.
This contradiction, being both indispensable and excluded, underscores the increasingly complex political situation that Palestinian citizens of Israel are forced to navigate. Today, I am speaking with Aida Touma-Sleiman to reflect on the pressures facing Palestinian citizens of Israel and the political possibilities — or limitations — for addressing them. Thank you, Aida, for joining me on the +972 podcast.
Aida Touma-Suleiman
Thank you for hosting me.
Ghousoon Bisharat
I would like to start with the most pressing issue for our community, the Palestinian citizens of Israel, and that is organized crime and violence. As of the recording of this interview on Thursday, January 15, 18 Arab Palestinian citizens of Israel have been killed in incidents of crime and violence since the start of the year. Today, on the way to the studio here in Haifa, I heard the news about one more victim, a woman who was shot dead in al-Bi’ina. Her name is Wafaa Badran Hasarmi, 35, she was shot dead while driving with her two kids in the car. In 2025, 252 were murdered, including 23 women. To put that in perspective, Palestinian citizens of Israel represent around 21% of the population, around 2.1 million, but 73% of murder victims, and it ranks third highest among countries with similar political and economic conditions behind only Mexico and Colombia.
In parallel, police violence is also on the rise. According to Abraham Initiatives, a civil society organization advocating for social inclusion and equal rights for Palestinian citizens, 12 of the 2025 victims were killed during police activity. On January 3rd, a police operation in the village of Tarbin al-Sanaa in the Naqab, Nagev, ended with the killing of Mohammed Hussein Tarabin al-Sanaa, sparking outrage and renewed protests. Earlier this week, on January 11, about 1,000 people demonstrated in Jerusalem outside the Prime Minister’s office to protest the government’s neglect and the lack of serious law enforcement policies against crime groups. You were there, and you said that for the first time you feel the anger and fear that have been building up is being externalized. Can you describe what feels different about this moment, both in how the public is responding and in how the communities are voicing their demands?
Aida Touma-Suleiman
I think that what we are facing today is a situation where we almost hit the bottom rock. How much can this society, this community tolerate to live in such terrorizing and a feeling of lack of security, personal security, and be quiet about it? The situation is beyond any description, even the horrifying description that you gave in the beginning. You spoke about murder cases, which is horrifying. I mean, just to start your day with the knowledge that a woman, a 35 years old woman, was killed. And to understand that she was with her two children, and she is a widow for a man who was killed in 2021. A young woman of 35 is not supposed to go through all of that in her very short time. A young man of 17 years old should not be shot by the police in the yard of his house. But still, there are other types of crimes that nobody is able to speak about.
Collecting protection from businesses — almost all the businesses in our society have to pay protection to the crime groups. Otherwise, they will shoot you, they will shoot your family, they will shoot the business, they will shut you down. Loans, they started a kind of alternative banking system where if you get a loan — because 2% of the loans in Israel are given to the Palestinian community in the official banks — meaning people don’t have any other options and sometimes they turn to these groups without knowing what they are getting themselves in.
The feeling of fear and lack of hope that someone will rescue us from this situation or want to rescue us, people believe that there is no real political will at this government to secure its citizens, its Arab-Palestinian citizens. And that’s why the anger is very high. I think people understood that they are by themselves: We need to organize ourselves, we need to put pressure on the government, otherwise nothing is going to move.
Ghousoon Bisharat
In that same demonstration at the beginning of this week, you said that this demonstration, this protest, is not only a symbolic act of dissent, but as something meant to disturb the state’s activities until basic rights are respected. You also said that the leadership is examining a set of activities that could lead to civil disobedience. What does that mean in practical terms?
Aida Touma-Suleiman
Well, in practical terms, we got to a situation where we understand that our lives are not going on a normal situation. Our community is not living a normal life, and if we want the state to understand that they should move in order to change this situation, it looks like the state should not live a normal life, although nothing is normal in Israel in international measures. But even for the Israeli measures, life should not be normal when 20% of the population is living under the control of crime organizations.
What does it mean? First of all, the way our economic life is not going well, we can influence the economic life in Israel. Our community is a very hardworking community, and we are in every place in this country. We are in hospitals. We are public transportation drivers.
We are the majority of the public transportation drivers, and we are 40% of the medical staff in Israel. We are a people who have businesses and are contributing to the taxes in the state. We are very obedient citizens till now. So if one day the bus drivers decide to paralyze the public transportation in order to make all the citizens of Israel understand how our life is paralyzed out of fear. If the doctors, nurses and all the staff in the hospitals will say, “two hours in our day, we are not going to do anything except if it is concrete safety at that moment,” we can reach a situation where we do a general strike. You know what?
What if on the day of paying taxes or VAT, the whole businesses decide that this month we are not paying? Or the community decides that tonight nobody is using electricity and we shut electricity? This is going to cost the electricity company money. We are looking for ways of civil and nonviolent resistance that can bring pressure on the government to understand and for the Jewish community to start questioning this government and why they are not doing anything to help our community from those crimes.
Ghousoon Bisharat
Crime is often discussed not just as a policing issue, but as connected to wider state inequalities in areas like planning, education, health and welfare. How do these structural factors interact? And what impact do they have on the community?
Aida Touma-Suleiman
You know, there are the core issues that are related to crime that should be dealt with by the government, including policing, protecting the community. And there are the wider reasons that you spoke about the more soft — let’s say, infrastructure that can be laid in order to make it easier to bring more people to the crime, which are created because of long-term discrimination, long-term of neglect and deprivation of rights, social and economic rights that any citizen should be having. Of course, we do not try to legitimize getting into the crime groups because you are poor.
This is not the way, but it is not. If 60% of our children live under the poverty line, and the state is not doing anything to change that situation, what kind of a new generation are we raising? How are we going to deal with giving them a real opportunity to develop themselves and have skills and education that will prevent them from being part of the crime? If you know that most small businesses are almost in a situation of collapsing economically, and on top of that, you have groups that are collecting protection from them, then it’s easy to catch one of the small business owners into that big net of crime.
The government had a plan — it’s called Economic Developing Plan for the Arab population 550, which was developed after the 922 plan, which we created when first we were a joint list with the Ministry of Finance, and it including closing gaps in the areas where discrimination existed very clearly like health, education, welfare programs, for economic development, etc, etc. Lately, this government, which says very clearly that there is a problem with crime in our society, cut down 220 million shekels from programs that were what we call the soft reasons for a crime, and they deprived the society from that. And that’s coming after a cut that was done in the programs in the beginning of the year.
So it shows very clearly that no one in this government really wants to close gaps or to deal neither in the core treatment of the crime nor in the soft.
Ghousoon Bisharat
Some critics, including Palestinians argue that focusing too much on state discrimination might let local leaders or patriarchal systems avoid accountability. How do you balance highlighting structural issues with promoting internal accountability and community-driven solutions?
Aida Touma-Suleiman
I can understand that when we are talking about violence, social violence. And, you know, I came from many, many years of dealing with patriarchal social violence, meaning gender-based violence and other ways. Not when we are talking about crime, and organized crime. We have to differentiate. Now, the two are existing and the two are enriching each other, meaning social violence and organized crime. Part of the problems of the violence that exists on a social background is using or going to the organized crime to help them in solving the problem, which means more crimes and criminal actions are taken.
But we have to differentiate. A civil society or a society can be, and leadership, can be responsible in taking actions to change the social environment, the violence on social background. Civilians and even leadership, especially sitting in the opposition, cannot deal with organized crime. Organized crime is kind of a state within a state. They have their own soldiers, they have their own hierarchy, they have their own people, and they are very much full of weapons.
You know, we are talking about organized criminals who have missiles. So you cannot deal with that with your, you know, educating or talking to the people. This will never stop organized crime. Organized crime should be dealt with by the only authority in any state that can use violence — it’s the police, it’s the state.
And Israel betrayed the social agreement between the state and its citizens. We have obeyed the law, paid taxes, acted like normal citizens, the state should have protected us. In our situation, it’s not only that the state did not protect us, it is the state who is sponsoring and leaving the organized crime to control us. They are dealing with the organized crime as a subcontractor to control our society. That does not to say that I’m forgiving ourselves for not having very clear programs, first, to deal with the social violence and the patriarchy violence, and second, to organize ourselves, politically in a proper way in order to put pressure on the state.
Ghousoon Bisharat
How is the state sponsoring the crime groups?
Aida Touma-Suleiman
In my opinion, the minute the state is not doing anything about it, they are sponsoring. I mean, if what is happening in our society was happening in any Jewish city, they would have smashed them in two months, and there is a story like this in Israel.
They have done it in Nahariya, they have done it in Netanya. They have done it to the biggest organized crime that existed there in Israel. Why are they not doing it? It’s very ridiculous. You know, the Israeli police is very effective. They would know if you published one post in your Facebook and they will get to you and take you in one day. And we have seen that through the war. But to know what the criminals are doing, suddenly they need more tools.
Ghousoon Bisharat
About a year ago, you initiated a special day at the Knesset to discuss crime and violence and its effects on children in Arab society. During that day, discussions were held in the Education, Welfare, Science, and Status of Women committees to highlight the impact on women and children. I assume this is part of your effort to force the government and the Knesset members to adopt a more comprehensive approach in order to fight this phenomenon. Do you see any change in the approach of MKs from the opposition, parties from the opposition?
Aida Touma-Suleiman
Well, I have to say that’s true. I mean, and I’m in the middle of preparations for another special day on crime in the Knesset that will be held in March, again. And actually next week I’m running the Children’s Rights Committee. We’re having a session. I was asked to run it about the orphans of crime in our society. So this issue and the services and the protection that can be given and how to combat crime in our society has been on top of my agenda in the last five, six years in the Knesset, in the parliamentary work.
So yes, I can see a little bit of change, at least now, those who are sitting in the opposition and some of those in the coalition, but back — not leading figures — in the coalition, are starting to understand that talking about cultural reasons for crime is not holding anymore. And we are facing them with facts, with numbers, including, for example, listen, since 1948 till 2000, in this country, 250 Palestinian citizens were killed by crime on criminal background. 250 last year, only, in one year, 253. What? We created a new culture?
If they are saying this is cultural, then it did not exist between 48 and…so it’s maybe when we were real Palestinians, we were not criminals. The more we got to be Israelis, it looks like we are becoming criminals, if they are talking about culture, okay? So more and more people understand, or MKs understand, that they need to deal with this problem.
And you know what? Sometimes it’s a lot of pain for me that I understand that some of them only want to move because the crime is reaching out to the Jewish community. And then only, as I said, “Jewish lives matter, as long as it is not in our backyard, it’s okay.” So there is a little bit of change. Some of them are using it even for political reasons, you know, to say that the government is not doing well. For me, use it as you want, as long as you are really fighting for measures to stop the crime.
Ghousoon Bisharat
And do you see increasing women’s political participation as a way to address these challenges in crime and social inequality?
Aida Touma-Suleiman
I believe that women should be part of the struggle and struggle is not, the political engagement is not only in the Knesset. I’m not saying that because I don’t want to see women in the Knesset or believe that it’s not important. I wish that the 120 are feminists, not women, we should also correct our language. Because in my opinion, you have Son Har-Melech, who is a woman, you have Strook as a woman. You have many other women who I wish they were not part of the political arena. And probably there are women in our society also who adopt all the patriarchal violence and ways of dealing with politics. I want to see feminists who are willing to challenge the state violence, who are willing to challenge the social violence in our society, the patriarchal violence, and would participate in the struggle.
Because I believe, you know, in most cases, women are not involved in the crime. And they are dealing with the consequences of the men being involved or victims of crime. When a husband is killed, who will be carrying the family after that and taking care of the family? This is the woman who will be doing this. This morning, I started it with a phone call from the mother of the young man who was killed by the police last week. The pain that they are living should be translated, channeled to a real struggle against the crime. Look at the world, wherever there were mafia or organized crime, the women were in the forefront of dealing with it. And I believe that they are able to do it.
Ghousoon Bisharat
But if we zoom out a bit to speak about women participation in politics, there are only two Arab women MKs, yourself and one more from the United Arab List. There are no Arab women mayors. The situation is no better for Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. Women participation decreased in the last two decades.
Aida Touma-Suleiman
The whole public struggle has decreased, so women also. Political parties are becoming weaker. Political ideology is becoming weaker. And women usually need that kind of atmosphere in order to be able to participate. When all of that decreases, then, yes, it will be difficult, more difficult for women. And the women who are able to penetrate, sorry, for the language, in these places, as usually those who play the game the exact way that the patriarchy wants them to do it.
So yes, I think what is happening with women is part of what is happening to politics in general, especially in our country. And as a minority, you have to remember that we are a minority in this country and we will see another decrease in the next few years. You know why? Because organized crime is also getting to the public sphere — war, violence, militarized society, very high patriarchal society are real obstacles in the ability of women to integrate.
And you know what part of it also because sometimes we, I think in politics, they create an illusion that to be in a position as a mayor or an MK, it’s like they deal with it as if it is a job and they are dealing with it in such a way that nobody is talking about the fact that you need to be a real leader with a vision, with an ideology or at least a vision of what do you want to change in this society. So I think it’s a long process that we need to talk about because part of the question, also, turning from a popular feminist, struggling organizations into an NGO organizations that many of your work is narrowing to projects instead of dealing with the whole political atmosphere that you need to work on these projects have damaged, let’s say, the feminist a movement. And we need to wake up from that situation. We need to go back and to ask ourselves, because we saw that during the last genocidal war, different models of women going back to organize themselves on the basis of political feminism, which is, I miss very much.
We had professional feminism lately and I believe that we need to go back to political feminism where we have a vision of how we are going to change the balance of power in our society and not only give services to women.
Ghousoon Bisharat
In November 2025, after roughly 10 years in the Knesset, you announced that you would not seek re-election. In a very candid interview with Haaretz, you said, “the Knesset symbolizes everything I have fought against, embodying oppression, silencing, and Jewish supremacy.” When you say the Knesset symbolizes everything I have fought against, are you talking about the institution itself or about how it currently operates in this moment, especially after October 7th attack and the genocide in Gaza?
Aida Touma-Suleiman
I think I cannot separate. It operated in such a way during the war, but if there wasn’t an infrastructure that allows the Knesset to act in such a way, it wouldn’t have acted this way. If there were checks and balances, and if there were real restraints that can guarantee, truly, a real democracy, it wouldn’t have acted this way. So I cannot separate saying, “Ok, there was a Knesset before the war and there was a Knesset during the war.” Sorry
This same Knesset allowed by law to have Smotrich as a Second Minister in the Defense Ministry, responsible for the everyday life details in the West Bank and occupied territories. And it also allowed, by law, to give authorities to Ben Gvir and to have him as a Minister. And that was before the war.
When you are elected, and when I ran to the Knesset, I really wanted to change things, I wanted to do things. And I created a few laws and policies, and I led a parliamentarian committee. But I have the feeling now that I should put most of my energy in order to be able to speak, to say my opinion in the Knesset. And nobody understands that because nobody is living the life inside the Knesset. The committees in the Knesset are in the hands of the fascists. They are not allowing you to say words, specific words. And of course we are fighting that.
I want to fight all of that oppression and silencing, not as part of that establishment. I always felt that I could survive in that establishment or structure and give a different — show my politics — and to prove to the people there is a possibility. As long as it’s shrinked, I’m suffocating there. I cannot continue there.
Ghousoon Bisharat
Now that you’re about to leave that scene,
Aida Touma-Suleiman
Hopefully tomorrow, because you know why? Because that will mean that this government is done.
Ghousoon Bisharat
I would like to ask you about that. You’re about to leave that scene, so I want to ask you about the joint list, which once brought together the four major Arab parties, including your party — the Jewish Arab Party — creating one of the largest parliamentary factions, and raising hopes for stronger Arab representation. The four Arab parties ran together in three election campaigns, 2015, 2019, and 2020. But internal splits persisted, and the ideological disagreements between the leftist, nationalist, and the Islamist led to the official split in 2021 elections, and contributed to lower turnout in that year’s elections and left many voters — many Palestinian — voters frustrated or politically disengaged.
But today, there are calls to revive the joint list in order to challenge this government. A survey from December 2025 by an Arab polling center, Statnet, showed that 82% of the Palestinian citizens of Israel want a joint list of the four Arab parties and only nine support two lists. In your opinion, given the current climate, is a renewed joint list politically viable in the next election cycle?
Aida Touma-Suleiman
If you are asking the way the institutions that do the polls usually ask questions, meaning, “in an ideal situation, would a joint list will be viable or necessary?” I will tell you, yes, it is necessary and it can be viable.
But taking into consideration that persons who are involved and the parties who are involved, I’m telling you, it’s known now that the gap between the approaches of the two camps is very far. Mansour Abbas, heading the United List, has said it very clearly, he is not interested in having the joint list. He believed that his party should be running by itself because he is targeting to be part of any government that will agree.
There are two major approaches now in our society. One approach believes that we need to struggle and we need to try to influence the policies, and there is a connection between the fact that we are Palestinians and our people are still under occupation and there is no way really to change the meaning of our citizenship without ending the occupation. And between another camp that is represented by Mansoor Abbas that is saying, “let’s put aside the issue of occupation and the issue of our people. Let’s give it to any government that will be in Israel to deal with it. And of course, we would like them, you know, to have peace with the Palestinians. But let’s focus on our situation and only on our situation. And not even challenging the real questions of what does it mean, our citizenship? What does it mean to have a Jewish nationality law? What does it mean to have discriminatory laws and apartheid regimes that are evolving? Just give us some budgets and we will deal with ourselves. Let me be me, Mansour Abbas, your subcontractor in our society.”
These are two different political approaches. And when we are talking, we should be clear about it. And I think that Mansour is saying very clearly, “I want to be part of any government that will come.” We believe that we cannot be part of any government, we should have a clear understanding. And I’m telling you, in my opinion, the way the political map looks today, any government that will be after the next election, it is not a government that we can live peacefully with.
This should be clear. We see the political map. But on the other hand, we understand that we have a major role to stop any fascist government to be created again. And this is not by entering a new government. Let’s be clear about it. If only we manage to raise the voting percentage or the turnout percentage among our society to the maximum, we’ve done our work. We blocked the fascists. It’s up now to the Jewish Zionist parties if they want to join then. Again, despite everything, they want to join the fascists. If Gantz, despite everything, he’s still saying, “I want to be in partnership with Netanyahu,” this same Gantz that was given a recommendation by the Arab population in order to block Netanyahu.
So I believe that we need the joint list as a strategy and not only as a tactic, as a strategy that is in the way of building up a political entity that represent the Palestinians in a proud way, in a not compromising way, in understanding that we have major role, not only in our society, because we have also democratic Jews. And I think there are more democratic Jews who are looking for a political home that are willing to represent the general understanding of what kind of a state we want to have and not only getting budgets for the Arab population.
Ghousoon Bisharat
Speaking of the United Arab List and Mansour Abbas, his approach or agenda is gaining more support among Palestinian citizens of Israel. You know, he joined the Lapid Bennett government in 2021, which was called the “change government” for 18 months, he was part of the coalition, he was a minister. He claims that at that time, for example, the number of victims from, you know, violence was much lower than in the last two years.
Aida Touma-Suleiman
And one year before that it was lower.
Ghousoon Bisharat
So but also, you know surveys are showing that more and more Palestinians are in favor of of Arab parties joining the government or the coalition, one by Tel Aviv University from November ‘25, and the second from December ‘25 by the Israel Democracy Institute showed that more than 77% of Palestinians are in favor of Arab parties joining the government or the coalition. How do you understand these numbers? And what does your party say to the Palestinian public on this issue?
Aida Touma-Suleiman
First of all, thank you for mentioning who did the surveys. And second, I understand very well how these surveys work and what kind of questions they ask. Nobody asked our society the next question, “you are in favor of being in the government, which kind of government you are willing to be part of?” Nobody’s asking because you know why? Because it will put restraints on the Zionist governments to which kind of government they will create in order to include the Palestinian society. I mean, the so-called liberal camp is in a problem. This crisis did not start now. This crisis also was in the last 10 years, because none of those liberals is willing to admit the fact that you cannot be liberal, you cannot be democratic, and ignore the fact that there is a continuous occupation done by your governments.
The same government that is said they reduced, you know, you never measure a problem by three, four months of implementing a policy. It could have been by chance, the numbers were reduced, and if it wasn’t by chance, thank you. Thank you, because suddenly a government is trying to do the things they should be doing. But this same government continued demolishing houses or not in the Negev. This same government continued the settlements in the West Bank. This same government and same Mansour Abbas and his colleagues voted for banning the union of Palestinian families or not. So they are in a crisis. The liberal, so-called liberal, they are in a crisis, and we are in a crisis because we have a fascist government.
They want us to save themselves from confronting the reality that they are not giving any alternative, real alternative politics to what is existing in this country. They should understand that without — not because of us only — without deciding truly what kind of a state they want to build. Not democracy for the Jews, but a real democracy. Not saving the Supreme Court because it defended some of the liberal rights, but creating a Supreme Court that can be really protecting all the citizens of Israel and those who are under occupation.
So, yes, people, when they are desperate, they are looking for solutions, and we understand that. What we are telling the people is that the crisis has reached a situation that needs to be to create real solutions, and not to maintain the situation. You know, I would like to ask those 77% who want us to be in any way in any government — as the institutions say —what they think if we were part of a government on the 7th of October 2023 and during two years of genocide. All those who are called opposition today, not including us, even if they were not officially part of the government, they were part of the government and the policies of the government. So this kind of government?
Ghousoon Bisharat
But I have to point out that the two surveys did ask about what kind of government and there is no doubt that the majority goes for center-left government in the way that is presented by the…
Aida Touma-Suleiman
Sorry, I’m not asking center or right, Gantz defined himself as center. Is he center? Lapid is defining himself to the left. Is he left? So even by using this terminology, sorry, these surveys are serving a political agenda.
Ghousoon Bisharat
Sometimes it feels to me, personally, that Palestinian politics inside Israel see elections as their main tool, and sometimes the only goal, whether the national or local elections. Now that you’re about to leave that scene, do you think it is time for Palestinian citizens in Israel to explore other political methods?
Aida Touma-Suleiman
Well, that’s the difference between my generation and your generation. I lived in an era where we had politics all over the place, on local level, national level, and on international level. We saw politics in the university, we did politics in the feminist movement, we did politics all over. Yes, focusing too much on representative politics is part of the game that Israeli society puts on us and I think that’s part of using us as a tool in the crisis that has been created lately in order, you know, to decide to what side we are taking in this equation.
But we need to go back to ourselves and we need to go back to create our arenas of struggle outside. Part of it — it’s already we as a party, we already started Hadash and the Communist Party — we organized in the last two, three years, the student movement, and we are taking a very clear role in it. We have seen them acting during the war, they are active now in the issue of the crime. I would like to see also the women very well organized and the feminist movement is coming back and I’m part of different initiatives that are happening. We need to go back to our community organizing the community that will make us even stronger in the elections, if the election is still in the mind of the people. And that will make our people more clear about what they want to see in the election and how we can create solutions for our situation, not depending on any external control of the society.
We need to go back to revolutionary politics and not only representative. At least that’s what I want to do.
Ghousoon Bisharat
Good luck, Aida, and on your future plans.
Aida Touma-Suleiman
Thank you.
Ghousoon Bisharat
Thank you.
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Ghousoon Bisharat
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